$3.00 per Gallon Gas not far off.

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Oil and gasoline prices hit new highs Monday, sparking warnings that this may be the most expensive summer ever at the pump.

Shrugging off news that more oil was on the way, traders in New York sent the cost of benchmark crude up $1.79 to a record close of $41.72 a barrel, erasing hopes that oil futures would settle back below the $40 mark anytime soon.

On Friday, crude oil fell below $40 in New York for the first time in nearly two weeks after Saudi Arabia promised to pump more oil to ease prices. Experts had hoped oil prices would fall further Monday because of a weekend pledge from Saudi Arabia to increase production even more, but word of new supply glitches intervened.

"I think had we not had any more bad news, the Saudi oil would have been enough to calm the waters," said Phil Flynn, senior energy trader for Alaron Trading Corp. "But right now, oil is really outside of anyone's control. This market is going to be totally headline driven."

The news was no better for gasoline. In fact, a growing number of market watchers have begun predicting $3-a-gallon prices this summer — and that's for self-serve regular, not premium-grade fuel.

Regular gas for June delivery closed Monday at a record $1.458 a gallon, up 4.1 cents on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Retail prices, meanwhile, continued their relentless rise.

California's average price for self-serve regular leaped 5.5 cents during the last week to $2.324 a gallon, while the nationwide average jumped 4.7 cents to $2.064 a gallon — a record high in both cases, according to Monday's survey by the Energy Information Administration, an arm of the Energy Department.

Adjusted for inflation, both the oil and gasoline prices are lower than they were in the early 1980s. That, however, might be little comfort to consumers readying themselves for the Memorial Day weekend, the traditional kickoff to the summer driving season and one of the nation's most popular holidays for road trips.

Nearly 31 million U.S. travelers are expected to hit the road for trips of 50 miles or more over the coming weekend, up 3.4% from a year ago, AAA said.

Analysts say motorists probably will be paying even more for gas by the start of their weekend trips, and the outlook for the entire summer isn't much better. "We're going to see prices continue to rise through Memorial Day…. We could easily add another nickel or dime very quickly," Flynn said. "I think California is destined to pay $3 a gallon at some point this summer."

Flynn and others say the record-high cost of both oil and gasoline reflects extra-tight supplies that have been stretched by unexpectedly strong demand worldwide, fueled mostly by the growing economies in the United States and China.

"We're facing some very challenging times," said Amy Myers Jaffe, senior energy advisor at Rice University's Baker Institute. "Every molecule that can be produced is being produced, and it's not enough."

Any hiccup in the oil world — everything from a bad hurricane season in the Gulf of Mexico to outages at big refineries or a sudden disruption in exports from Saudi Arabia or Venezuela — will kick oil prices toward the unthinkable price of $50 a barrel, several experts said.

Even longtime oil investor T. Boone Pickens has joined the pessimists. If there's more turmoil in the Middle East, he said in a recent speech in Dallas, "I think you'll see $50 a barrel before you see $30. And I think you're going to see $3 a gallon for gasoline before you see $1.75."

On Monday, for example, oil prices rose largely because a string of events spooked the markets enough to offset the soothing effects of Saudi Arabia's promise to put out more oil, Flynn said.

The events included attacks on Iraqi pipelines that forced the shutdown of a refinery; a pipeline fire that shut down Washington state's largest fuel pipeline over the weekend, stopping the flow of 12 million gallons of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel a day; and a leak that on Saturday forced the shutdown of a Shell Oil Co. platform in the Gulf of Mexico that produces 150,000 barrels of oil daily.

"It's going to be very difficult to get through the summer unscathed," said Flynn, the commodities expert. "We hold our breath every day … but the odds are pretty good that something bad is going to happen."

If a refinery goes down in California, not an uncommon occurrence, then the $3 mark in gasoline is a near certainty, according to Severin Borenstein, director of the UC Energy Institute. "We're going to be in that situation, with that risk, all summer."

Added Charles Langley of the Utility Consumers' Action Network: "I would budget $2.30 a gallon for the next few months."

LA Times.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilheim:

Adjusted for inflation, both the oil and gasoline prices are lower than they were in the early 1980s. That, however, might be little comfort to consumers readying themselves for the Memorial Day weekend, the traditional kickoff to the summer driving season and one of the nation's most popular holidays for road trips.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the important part of the article. I like cheap gas as well, and forking over $40 to fill my tank bites. But why is oil supposed to be immune from inflation?
 

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Gas should not be immune from inflation but 30 to 40 percent price increases since the first of the year is not your normal inflation.With a very nesessary commodity like gasoline huge price jumps become an issue with most Americans. Gasoline prices have always been a politcal hot potato, I remember the shortages in the 70's when there were long lines everwhere it was the top news story for months.


wil.
 

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your negative posts are getting a little tedious - try to mix it up a bit. if you have an opinion post it, but this is not a newspaper, we are capable of finding these stories by ourselves.
 

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If oil was adjusted for inflation etc the real eqivalent early 80's price is about $80 a barrel, so as an add on optimistic note to the thread...

...even at $60 a barrel its a steal.

The equivalent early 1970's oil price will be $130 to $150 a barrel.

So in fact we're robbing them at $60 a pop, never mind $40.


We've actually had it pretty good for decades.
The oil price was at $10 in 1998.

But the party is gonna end eventually.
I consider myself lucky to have been a part of that generation that could indulge in the massive waste of oil while it was as cheap as chips.

[This message was edited by eek on May 27, 2004 at 05:34 AM.]
 

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LOL@eek, as usual.

I ignored your Malthusian rant about the end of oil in a previous thread, but just can't resist it. Just one more subject (along with guns, the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and so many many more) that you take the worst-informed view possible and inexplicably flaunt it.

There is no coming oil-mageddon. Get over it.

1) The popular notion of oil coming from rotting dinosaurs (actually it's plant life called diatoms, but most people just say dinosaurs because they're that stupid) has never been empirically proven. Because coal is inarguably the remains of plant matter, and coal and oil are somewhat similar, it is just taken as gospel. Inorganic sources of oil hydrocarbons have been proposed numerous times over the years and with equal if not greater scientific credibility as the Lesquerox theory.

2) Every dire oil prediction of the past, every single one, has failed to come to pass. The so-called "Hubbert Peak" in oil production, which is usually used as the basis for these idiot Doomsday scenarios, has never been able to take into account such factors as industry changes due to legislation, consumer preference, capital markets etc. Even the more sensible [SIC] professional doomsayers are quick to point out that they aren't saying that we're going to actually run out of oil, but that we're just going to have to pay more for it someday.

3) We can make oil. Synthetic oil, while not suitable for fuel applications under current technology, can supplant natural oil for a great many of its other industrial purposes, and only for slightly more money. As cheap oil reserves dry up, the relative cost of synthetic to natural oil will come down, and coupled with inevitable increases in the quality of synthetics more and more of the industrial market will move towards synthetics as a solution.

4) Shale extraction, deep water drilling, horizontal drilling, and other means of extraction which have not been cost-effective previously are gradually reaching the point of economic viability. Given that there is considered to be oil under nearly every square inch of the ocean floor between the Tropics, it is difficult to imagine running out any time soon.

5) Although overall consumption is up, the average automobile today uses a fraction of the fuel it did twenty-five years ago. The long-overdue adoption of hybrid cars (technology which has been available since the 1950's for fúck's sake) biodiesel and other initiaves (but not hydrogen, which is a stupid pipe dream and naturally the favoured route of politicians and ecofaggots) only become more attractive as oil prices continue to go up.

6) Speaking of oil prices going up. If gasoline went to $ 5.00 or $ 10.00 or $ 15.00 a gallon in the U.S., how would it impact us? Cause us to spend less time dawdling around on the highways? Carpool and cut down on accidents, gridlock and pollution? Quit letting teenagers have cars the day they become legally old enough to drive? Motivate us to invest in alternative fuel technology? Wow, that's some crisis -- perish the thought.

I could go on and on and on, but what would the point be? You'll ignore it, or in a million-to-one odds event, take it to heart only to find another hobgoblin within a week.

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Phaedrus
 

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3 bucks a gallon is farther off than you think,it has come down in the northeast already this week...unless of course Kerry has his way and increases taxes a half a buck.

Which reminds why the fxck don't people get bent out of shape when goverment tax gouges the way buis. price gouge?
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phaedrus:
LOL@eek, as usual.

6) Speaking of oil prices going up. If gasoline went to $ 5.00 or $ 10.00 or $ 15.00 a gallon in the U.S., how would it impact us? Cause us to spend less time dawdling around on the highways? Carpool and cut down on accidents, gridlock and pollution? Quit letting teenagers have cars the day they become legally old enough to drive? Motivate us to invest in alternative fuel technology? Wow, that's some crisis -- perish the thought.

I could go on and on and on, but what would the point be? You'll ignore it, or in a million-to-one odds event, take it to heart only to find another hobgoblin within a week.

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Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Hiya P.
Always glad to oblige, (I'll ignore the personal insults, just like I always do.)

I was around in the 70's when there was still enough oil, but it was kinda pricey because of the artificial shortages created by OPEC.

Shortly afterwards, inflation went through the roof, with all the worldwide fun and games that entailed.

The shortages now are different, they're physical, not artificial.
Which means we can't make them disappear, like the last time.

Its just a case of deja vu.

There will still be oil, there will always be oil. It will just cost more to buy, and thats what will affect the West far more than other regions.

Anyways, you'll see for yourself if a gallon of gas hits $10.
Most people don't take up jogging and cycling btw. (will you?)
They take up demanding more money, to maintain their standard of living.

We still survived the 70's and hyperinflation btw.
Life went on.
 

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eek, I normally try to avoid the personal insults, although I generally get quite nasty in response to same. In this case it's just ridicule for a ridiculous premise, specifically the Malthusian outlook inherent to a socialist. There is *no* looming oil crisis. Prices will go up, or new technology will enable the extraction from sources not currently economically viable, or we'll synthesise or adapt to something new, or a combination of two or more factors or stuff I've yet to mention or even stuff I've never heard of.

We need to lubricate stuff. We need to get from A to B. We need to formulate plastics. We need all of the stuff that we currently get from oil, and if it reaches the point where the products we currently out of oil can't be produced out of oil for what we're willing to pay for it, we'll find new ways to make the old stuff, or new stuff. The end. It's how humanity has worked since the dawn of time and will always work.

The doomsayer mentality (not so much you specifically but just in general) completely ignores human nature, which is why I find it so laughable.


Phaedrus
 

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Originally posted by WildBill

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You don't pay attention to the truth do you? Oil prices were down today and other than people that might want to gouge customers, are completely uneffected by terrorism that isn't specifically related to the process of getting oil out of the ground all the way down to getting gas for cars or houses. If anything, this could lower gas prices if it were to put a chill on the travel industry. Gas prices are actually levelling off and could go down a bit before May when the summertime increase always kicks in due to demand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

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Phaedrus,

Your response to this very important issue typifies the North American mentality, denial. The world economy is based on petrol economics and society as we know it cannot exist without the CHEAP and PLENTIFUL energy that oil provides. This is not about the American love affair with their cars, oil is a vital part of everything that makes our society function. Now that we have exported this industrialized cheap energy culture to the entire world in the name of corporate greed and short sightedness we have created an uncontrollable monster. China and India are the new junkies on the block and their thirst will be unquenchable.

The war in Iraq is a war for control of the 2nd biggest oil reserve in the world (they already have the Saudis deep in pocket). Your argument that we will come up with an alternative source of energy is obviously not shared by the US government. It seems that after considering all the alternatives of science and nature they decided there is only one solution...take it by force because there is nothing else. The resource wars are at hand.

It comes down to basic mathmatics and the laws of nature. Paper money does not create energy, bogus wall street accounting does not create energy. Energy is real and can neither be created nor destroyed only transformed. No other source of energy, either natural or man made, can turn the wheels of industry like oil can.

The bottom line is that this problem is being swept under the rug by the mass media to prevent mass hysteria. The world needs to act NOW before it becomes a crisis and I don't see anybody making the radical changes that are needed. Those like yourself who are aware of it don't want to believe it because it frightens you.

In my opinion this is not the latest Hobgoblin, this is the ONLY hobgoblin and it will eat us all.
 

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posted by BugBear:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Your response to this very important issue typifies the North American mentality, denial.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strange, since my opinion tends to be the opposite of typical North Americana. I'd say that a vastly greater number of North Americans have bought into psuedo-scientific environmentalist crap going back forty years to the DDT ban than have sought reasonable information and solutions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The world economy is based on petrol economics and society as we know it cannot exist without the CHEAP and PLENTIFUL energy that oil provides.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To a large extent you are correct that the economy is floating on the oil, so to speak, but to suggest that without the oil we'll all just go back to living in say early 19th-century level standards of living is just silly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The war in Iraq is a war for control of the 2nd biggest oil reserve in the world (they already have the Saudis deep in pocket).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it isn't, and the assertion is ludicrous and ignores the twelve years of run-up to that war. Even as someone who considers the iraq war to be totally and completely unwarranted as I do, the notion that it is "all about oil" is simply puerile.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Your argument that we will come up with an alternative source of energy is obviously not shared by the US government.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fortunately, despite the fact that the US government doesn't want you to know this, society can get along just fine independently of it. Ironically, that is bad news for the left, not the right, since everything the left wants "for the world" involves massive state power.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It seems that after considering all the alternatives of science and nature they decided there is only one solution...take it by force because there is nothing else. The resource wars are at hand.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If, in a remote billion to one chance, this were true, why would it matter and what would it have to do with my points above?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The bottom line is that this problem is being swept under the rug by the mass media to prevent mass hysteria. The world needs to act NOW before it becomes a crisis and I don't see anybody making the radical changes that are needed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What radical changes do you propose?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Those like yourself who are aware of it don't want to believe it because it frightens you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I'm not frightened of it because it is simply not frightening to me in the least. We are not going to run out of oil, and a massive run up in the cost of oil will only cause us to move into other alternatives, not cause some sort of global social breakdown. The problem with the logic you are using is that it assumes that oil prices are going to increase geometrically out of nowhere, or that one day the oil just goes *poof* and isn't there any more. It's ridiculous, something that not even a child could take seriously. Investment in oil alternatives has never been as high as it is now, and the same was likely true five years ago, ten years ago, twenty years ago, etc. One day the cost of oil as an energy surce might indeed go beyond that which is economically viable, and at that point we will stop using oil as an energy source -- nothing more dramatic than that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In my opinion this is not the latest Hobgoblin, this is the ONLY hobgoblin and it will eat us all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is sad to see a grown-up that scared of anything, but it's your life if you want to live it like that.


Phaedrus
 

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"No other source of energy, either natural or man made, can turn the wheels of industry like oil can."

BAR: Not at the moment, yes.

Industry is already responding to the demand for non-oil driven motors and engines.

I forsee an industry shift to provide two types of autos. One will be the more traditional long-distance machines which at this moment can't be sufficiently charged with electricity to be used that way.

The other type will be for local transport, a few hours at a time.

I'll agree though, that this paradigm shift will be hindered by the current energy providers, starting with their claim that 'there is no better way to channel energy than our way'....but such is the way of most change.
 

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posted by barman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'll agree ... that this paradigm shift [to alternate energy] will be hindered by the current energy providers, starting with their claim that 'there is no better way to channel energy than our way'....but such is the way of most change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Oil companies rank among the largest private sector investors in alternate energy sources. Do you seriously think that their boards of directors consider the whole multi-billion dollar conglomerate thing to be just a phase through which they are going? No other companies on earth have a more urgently vested interest in a replacement for oil energy than those whose very existence is currently dependent upon oil. That such alternatives will be developed is a certainty; what is uncertain is which companies will be able to successfully implement the changes necessary and which ones will go bankrupt and be bought out by the successful ones.

It's the same trend as can be seen in many Middle Eastern countries, where they have finally stopped squandering oil receipts on baubles and starting spending the money on massive infrastructure development, trade development, etc. (such as UAE, my personal favourite) These countries know that they won't be able to ride the oil train forever and are taking steps now despite the fact that they have the most oil of anyone in the world ... UAE's reserves are estimated between several decades and just over a century's worth at projected consumption levels, even more if alternatives gain prevalence in the market, yet UAE is on the leading edge of reducing the nation's dependence on oil for revenue.


Phaedrus
 

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Well put, P, and I acknowledge those correct observations.

I think a better way to phrase my previous mention was that the struggle will be within the industry(s) you cite, as well as yet unborn operators, while they on the one hand sell you 'Oil is best, use oil-based products', and on the other hand begin more active promotion of alternatives.

But again, that struggle has always accompanied change and this is likely no different.

What is apparent is that many key American investors are wed to the oil based economy and it is they who will struggle the hardest, especially if they view change outside the U.S. as being 'terrorist-driven' etc when it is not.

That is not to deny terrorist activity, it's merely noting that there are those who would like to label any and all change outside the U.S. which does not agree with Wash D.C. today must be degraded and diminished.

After all, those Frenchies, Krauts, Slanteyes and Ragheads don't really think they can lead the way on any thing substantive, do they? What nerve!

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Oil prices 'set for fresh surge'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3763313.stm
It did go down today tho.

Oil prices could overshadow Tuesday's monthly summit of European Union finance ministers.

According to the European Commission, a 25% jump in oil prices this year would reduce eurozone growth to less than 1.6% from an original forecast of 1.7%.

It would also boost average inflation to 2% from an initial forecast of 1.8%.
--------------------------------------

So it looks like even $50 a barrel wouldn't have much impact on things.


Nice to know.
It looks like it could go to $100 a barrel and we (The West) could still muddle by.


The oil crisis of the 70's was a jump from $2 around 1970 to $30 in 1973.
 

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I agree with some of what you say, in particular that industry and people will adapt. But I'm a lot more pessimistic about regarding how much oil we have left. The Hubbert analysis of the U.S. peak was dead-on and the same analysis applied to today's situation shows the peak is coming very soon, within a decade is likely. www.peakoil.net

It's not that I think it's an unsolvable crisis, but as you point out, the hydrogen idea is practically hopeless, as it requires more of the same fossil fuel to generate the hydrogen itself. So naturally the pols are all for it, lol.

I think the technology already exists to do what I'd like to accomplish at some point before I'm dead - built a totally energy self-sufficient house using newer technologies for efficient use/conservation, and solar and wind power, and get off the grid. That's hopefully going to be the future for all of us, barring big utilities conspiring to fvck people over, which is always a distinct possibility. As for my auto, that will require a bit more in the way of industry investment in new tech.
 

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My Toyota Prius gets 55MPG city 45MPG Highway, fill up 12 gallon tank less than once a month for about 20 bucks.


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